Shawna X is an independent artist and creative based in New York, known for her vibrant, visceral, and highly graphical image-making across mediums in digital, spatial, and motion spaces. Shawna's work addresses themes like cultural identity, the creative process and more recently, motherhood. In this episode, you will learn that doing CrossFit while pregnant is probably not the best way to train for childbirth. Also, how having doubt and self-sabotaging your work (and maybe your sanity alongside that doubt) can be a valuable part of the creative process. This is a conversation we were really excited to have and it does not disappoint.
Shawna X is an independent artist and creative based in New York, known for her vibrant, visceral and highly graphical image-making across mediums in digital, spatial, and motion spaces. She creates experiences in music, fashion, and technology, collaborating with the likes of Adidas, The New Yorker, Warby Parker, and Ghostly International. Shawna's work addresses themes like cultural identity, the creative process and more recently, motherhood.
During the conversation, Shawna opens up about how her work has evolved with recent life changes, and why sometimes that means letting go of certain clients. As she's grown as an artist, Shawna's priorities have shifted. "More than the money, more than the project, it's the people you're making work with...No project is really that glamorous." She also investigates what exists beyond surface-level goals. For Shawna, the bigger picture is freedom: of the mind, from pressures of society, from labels of motherhood and cultural expectations. The audience who she feels she has something to prove to is an audience of just one: her daughter Ren.
In this episode, you will learn that doing CrossFit while pregnant is probably not the best way to train for childbirth. Also, how having doubt and self-sabotaging your work and maybe your sanity alongside that doubt can be a valuable part of the creative process. This is a conversation we were really excited to have and it does not disappoint.
Follow @OvershareTalks on Instagram and Twitter.
SHOW NOTES:
Shawna X (Instagram / Working Not Working / website)
Adam JK's "I literally do not know what I'm doing" hat
F*** Your Manners exhibition
Shawna's partner Collin Hughes
Zipeng Zhu
Hassan Rahim makes Shawna jealous
Shawna X: [00:00:00] Something. Okay. For example, if I'm working out and it's really like a really difficult workout in my head, I'm like, I gave birth bro, and I'm fine. Always.
Justin Gignac: [00:00:15] Hi, welcome to Overshare, a show where I interview creatives I admire about the struggles of being a creative professional. I'm your host, Justin Gignac, and I'm also the cofounder and CEO of Working Not Working. Now, it has been, wow. Almost a year and a half since we released the last episode of season two. It's been a long time coming.
We really appreciate everyone who's reached out during the break and asked when the show was coming back, and it was really nice to hear that enthusiasm for what we're doing. It definitely made us want to get more episodes out. Now the whole point of overshare is to get past the highlights that people talk about on stage or conferences and get past those perfectly curated Instagram feeds.
And then our team looked at our own Instagram feed for Overshare at @oversharetalks. And it was kind of the opposite of that. It was clean, black and white photos. Very serious, very you know, cleanly designed and not really true to the brand. So our team, Gabi Damato and Eugene Ong and myself, went through and just shook the whole thing up.
And if you can go through our Instagram now and check out. It's very, the new branding for this episode is very collagey. The brief was anti-Marie Kondo, and we just wanted to make some mistakes and get past trying to be perfect with the design or the aesthetic, and we were just turning on some music, making some collage and having some fun with it. And so we hope you enjoy it. It definitely feels more in the spirit of what the show is and how the interviews go and the personality of these conversations. and so we're really excited to get things going and have this new branding come to life throughout the season.
Now, I usually script this intro because I was nervous about what I was saying, but this time I'm going to try to do the podcast or thing and just riff the podcast or babble. And so we'll see. I, I dunno, I feel like I don't experience imposter syndrome in my career at all, but with this, I'm definitely feeling it.
it just had a conversation with Andy J Miller, who is the incredible, incredible host of Creative Pep Talk. So if you don't listen to it you should go check that out. It's one of my favorite podcasts about creativity, and Andy can go on for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, giving you a creative pep talk about whatever topic.
And I've always been so impressed with that and the clarity and the sincerity that comes through when he's talking and doing his show. But it's been, I have a lot of admiration for it. So I'm going to try to chat a little bit here. You know, not going to go on too long cause you really want to get into the episode.
But we've, we've spent the last 18 months not completely ignoring this topic of talking about struggles. A couple of years ago I started something called Talking Not Talking. And it was born out of Overshare, where at the end of the live shows where we do a Q and A session with the audience, people would ask really vulnerable questions and it seemed like there was something we needed to talk about.
So I sent an invite out to the Working Not Working community and said, Hey, I don't know if anyone's going to be into this, but if you're at all interested, you can come. We'll sit around in a circle and talk about what we're struggling with right now. And I was shocked that, you know, the event was free, but I was shocked that it sold out in 10 minutes.
And we had a waiting list of 70 people and it was really powerful. And sitting around in a circle hearing other creatives talk about their struggles. Whether it's with imposter syndrome or creative insecurity or just being really fucking lonely working from home all the time. And the overwhelming feedback has been that you realize that you're not as fucked up and special as you think you are.
Everyone's going through this and everyone's going through these same struggles, and so we've been doing this support group Talking Not Talking every month, usually like the second Tuesday after work, and each time it's a different theme. This month's theme is worth, worth... I'm tripping over my words. This month's theme is worth, and it's just been so powerful that we've expanded to other cities. It's now in Los Angeles and in San Francisco. And we've even started doing online huddles that are kind of like Talking Not Talking, but they're hosted by Tina Essmaker, who's an amazing coach, and she writes a column on Working Not Working Magazine called Asking Not Asking that you should also check out.
But it's nice to be able to bring it online. And bring it to more people who can't necessarily come to our events and you know, just New York, LA, and San Francisco. Now let's talk about this episode. We are releasing it on International Women's Day and we thought it'd be very appropriate to have Shawna X as our first guest to kick us off.
Shawna doesn't like labeling herself, but she dabbles in many things as an artist, illustrator, designer, a creative person, creative soul, and she has gone through some changes in the past couple of years. She had a baby, and I know a lot of people have babies and a lot of creative people have babies, but it's not very often that you see creative women who have children and really incorporate the pregnancy and the childbirth and everything that comes along with it after into their work. And that's exactly what Shawna did. Her work was always trippy and beautiful and curvy and sexy. And when she became pregnant, she started in her illustration style telling the story of her pregnancy and how her body was changing and the effect it had on her when she had a kid.
She started doing work about breastfeeding and about leaking and all of the things, the real things that come along with being a parent and being specifically being a mother. And so I've always been just impressed with her courage and saw her give an incredible talk at Us by Night in Antwerp in the fall.
And just seeing that made me really want to have her on this show and have this conversation so. If you don't know Shawna, she's done work, incredible work for clients like the New Yorker, the Guardian. She did the branding for 29 Rooms for Refinery 29, she's done sculptures and installations for the Museum of Pizza and design cars for Squarespace volleyball courts for the U S women's volleyball team.
And on and on and on. So in this episode, you will learn that doing CrossFit while pregnant is probably not the best way to train for childbirth. And also how having doubt and self sabotaging your work and maybe your sanity with that doubt, it can be a valuable part of the creative process. so this is a conversation I was really excited to have and it did not disappoint.
I hope you enjoy it. I know you'll enjoy it. so please, wait. I know you'll enjoy it. Hope you'll enjoy it? I was going to say, please enjoy. Anyway, please enjoy this conversation with Shawna X.
Shawna X: [00:07:22] Drum roll.
Justin: [00:07:23] Hi, Shauna. How are you? We've just been sitting here setting up and now I'm like, all right, cool. Let's record this.
Well, very, very excited to have you here. It's the first episode of the new season, long awaited. It's been, I don't know, almost a year and a half since we've had an episode out. So, we got, we got a lot coming, but I'm excited to have you kicking this off. But we're trying something new. So to start this, I always like having warm up questions.
So I'm doing five random questions from a random receptacle. Great. and so today's receptacle is this black hat, but it's not just a black hat. It's an Adam JK.
Shawna X: [00:07:56] Hello. Shout out Adam.
Justin: [00:07:59] It says, I literally do not know what I'm doing. and Adam was on last season of Overshare. So I'm going to put a bunch of random questions in here, to get us started.
And you're going to pick five and you're gonna answer one at a time. This is so exciting.
Shawna X: [00:08:12] Follow my intuition.
Justin: [00:08:13] New segments. All right, let's start with that one.
Shawna X: [00:08:15] Yeah. What was your favorite movie as a kid? Pocahontas.
Justin: [00:08:20] Oh yeah.
Shawna X: [00:08:21] It was the only ethnic, like animated character I remember seeing when I was a kid and she was in the wild and she jumped off a waterfall.
She was beautiful and she's saying Colors of the Wind. I loved her.
Justin: [00:08:34] Amazing.
Shawna X: [00:08:34] Yeah. Okay. Second. Ooh, a long, long question. If you could steal one piece of art to hang in your home, what would it be? This is hard. I think I would just, honestly, this is like so mainstream. I want to do it just almost like, ironically have this in my home, but it's like a Jeff Koons, that stupid balloon dog.
I just want that. So people come in, they see it. I'm like, yeah, I stole this. Just to tell them that I stole it.
Justin: [00:09:07] It's not like a little painting. It's
Shawna X: [00:09:09] like a huge sculpture. That's
Justin: [00:09:10] Thousands and thousands of pounds
Shawna X: [00:09:12] I want that to just be in the living room
Justin: [00:09:14] and then you can come up with like where you would have to steal from a museum or maybe like an outdoor space.
Shawna X: [00:09:19] I want to do it from, what is that one car? Wasn't there like a car place that it sits in? There's like a big reception area. Yeah. And I'm like, I just want to steal it from like a random lobby.
Justin: [00:09:30] Okay. So if anybody knows how to steal a Jeff Koons, Shawna's in.
Shawna X: [00:09:35] Just to have one.
Justin: [00:09:35] Just to have one, yeah.
Shawna X: [00:09:36] Why not?
Justin: [00:09:37] Okay.
Question number three.
Shawna X: [00:09:39] If you had to be named yourself, what name would you go with? I actually think about this quite a bit because Shawna was actually a name given to me when I was eight. So my Chinese name is Xia Yun and I never went with that, but it means summer grass. So I was like, should I just name myself grass? Or summer? Like what are these names? That's like,
Justin: [00:10:03] have you ever thought of going back to it?
Shawna X: [00:10:04] no, because it's not my identity anymore. It's interesting how that goes,
Justin: [00:10:09] and you had that, you were using that name until were eight.
Shawna X: [00:10:12] Yeah. Yeah. It was like a very formal name, and then my English tutor was like, it sounds like Shawna.
Justin: [00:10:20] That's so heartbreaking though. I've talked to a lot of friends who are like. . Zipeng Zhu. His story of like every day for like two months, he introduced himself to his roommate as, hello, my name is Phillip. Hello, my name is Phillip. Nice to meet you. And that's the only English he knew.
And so he just would repeat that every morning to his roommate and everyone he met and it was just like. So heartbreaking, like, you know, it's nice that he went back to Zipeng,
Shawna X: [00:10:44] I'm going to start calling him that though,
Justin: [00:10:46] Phillip. Yeah, I'm sure he'll love it.
Shawna X: [00:10:48] okay. Next question. What is your guilty pleasure? Since I've become a mom, I've been watching trash television.
Justin: [00:10:57] What's your definition of trash?
Shawna X: [00:10:59] Love is Blind.
Justin: [00:11:01] Wait, is this this?
Shawna X: [00:11:02] It just came out, Love Island, all that shitty trashy television that I used to hate. I was like, I would never watch a second of this. It will rot my brain and now I'm like, you know what? This is really like mindless. I love it. It's great.
Justin: [00:11:17] That's the one, the new Netflix one where they're behind a screen and they can talk, but they can't see each other and they fall in love, get married, they get engaged, they get married. Their families don't like that.
Shawna X: [00:11:29] It's all within a month or something like that. It's also like insane they put human emotion like that on display as entertainment. It's something I think
Justin: [00:11:39] If it's real human emotion... it might also be actors,
Shawna X: [00:11:42] that's, I dunno, I can't tell.
Justin: [00:11:43] Yeah, that looks pretty great. My, my guilty pleasure right now is the greatest television show ever made.
Masked singer.
Shawna X: [00:11:51] Oh yes,
Justin: [00:11:52] oh my God. It's so good. It's so stupid.
Shawna X: [00:11:55] It's like a celebrity behind a mask
Justin: [00:11:57] Like Lil Wayne was the first one this season. Yeah. Which now like listening back I'm like how did I not get that. But, anyway, that shows amazing. We should have a watch party. Last one from the random questions.
Shawna X: [00:12:08] What was your favorite food as a kid? I loved happy meals from McDonald's
Justin: [00:12:12] really? Yeah, I guess we all kind of did, right?
Shawna X: [00:12:15] I was like, yes, I want a toy
Justin: [00:12:17] Toy, chicken nuggets.
Shawna X: [00:12:19] Yeah. It just, it was really simple. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin: [00:12:23] In your work, you talk a lot about food.
Shawna X: [00:12:25] Yeah. Well, I grew up with Chinese food, but it's like my common familiar food you get at home anytime any day.
So, of course I wanted like the shittiest fries and burgers and crappy chicken nuggets.
Justin: [00:12:37] But what was for you common was, cause I went to your show. Yeah. Fuck Your Manners. Which is unbelievable. Like, taking your work and then making it like 20 feet long and 10 feet tall and three-dimensional. Like how did that, how did that come about? How did you make that happen? Going from your style and what you do to then these large scale sculptures?
Shawna X: [00:13:02] I feel like I can always see beyond the flat surface, like the 2D sphere in which I do a lot of work in just because I think that's just part of, you know. As someone that's very visua, tthat's part of how I see and do work, and I think that was the first time when I'm like, I should try to exercise pushing the boundary of what I've created and what people put me in as a boundary into something else. Cause I think, a lot of creatives are cornered into boxes.
Like you're an illustrator, you're a type designer, you're an art director. You know, it's like very specific. And when you go and do other... dabble in different types of work within the same realm, it's like, Whoa, that's crazy. But it's not like we all think in different capacities.
Justin: [00:13:51] We all just want to make shit.
Shawna X: [00:13:52] Exactly. So that was like an experience that, you know, I was able to take something very personal and push that.
So I think that's what I loved about that show specifically.
Justin: [00:14:01] Well, and you had eyeballs in it.
Shawna X: [00:14:03] Yeah, that was fish balls or fish eyeballs. Cause I used to love that when I was a kid too.
It's like really, it doesn't taste like anything.
Just fun to eat just cause it was like everyone was disgusted by it.
But then like my family were like really into it. But now if I were to hang out with friends, I'm like, I eat fish eyeballs and they're all like, yeah, that's so gross. It was like a fun, like. I dunno. It was like a thing I like was proud of, of course, some reason, and then it just became, you know, part of the show, obviously.
Justin: [00:14:34] Yeah. Just a giant fish eyeball. Like also, a lot of it was about. Were you embarrassed by your parents?
Shawna X: [00:14:40] Yeah, I was when I was, you know, I think a lot of immigrants or just like second generation immigrants. Kids are always trying to conform to the Western American society or just like the ideal of what is like good, what is polite to fit in and it's assimilation.
And I think, you know, when your parents hold onto a specific set of behaviors and culture that's totally different, as a child, it's very confusing and conflicting. So I definitely internalized that as a kid. You know, when they would pack me sushi or like something they made for lunch. Yeah. People who were like, Hey, what is that?
You know? Or like when we go out to restaurants and my mom would like eat very like happily, just like, you know, they slurp noodles and it's very impolite in everyone else's eyes.
Justin: [00:15:31] But it's how you eat and you enjoy the food. Right?
Shawna X: [00:15:33] Right. And like when you're back in Asia or any other countries, that's like how they enjoy the food.
There's nothing wrong with it. So that was something I was thinking about when I was making that, creating that exhibition.
Justin: [00:15:45] What a more freeing way to eat. Yeah, it's kind of going for it and making noise and being sloppy and, and being in it. I love that. I kinda, I want, I want now, I want to have a bowl of noodles and make a bunch of noise.
We, we should have had fish eyeballs here and just like really gone for it. But this turned into like Fear Factor for me. Does everyone remember that show? Am I making references? And nobody gets now cause I'm old. Okay. You guys know Fear Factor. Okay, good. So last time we saw each other was in Antwerp, at Us by Night, which is amazing.
Amazing festival and conference. I thought you gave, a pretty incredible talk.
Shawna X: [00:16:20] Thank you.
Justin: [00:16:21] because you had some life changes happen in the past year and a half. would you like to disclose
Shawna X: [00:16:27] I'm a mother
Justin: [00:16:27] you're a mother, you're a mother to baby Ren. Oh my God. So cute.
Probably the cutest baby I've ever seen.
Yeah. Way to go.
Shawna X: [00:16:37] She's awesome.
Justin: [00:16:38] but that talk, you know, and I think it's part of the reason why I started Overshare. Like, you know, I got tired of going to conferences and hear people only talk about the highlights and the things that. Yeah, the amazing talent, successes and all that. And you talked about some real shit on stage and how your life has completely changed.
and I guess, was that an easy thing for you to do where you're like, all right, I'm giving a talk at Us By Night, I'm just gonna put it all out there? Or is there any hesitation to, to really talk about this stuff?
Shawna X: [00:17:01] Tons of hesitation. Especially because it was for a crowd of people. I don't, I've never, like, I don't know anything about European design or anything like that. And a lot of people that they're wore from different parts of Europe, and on top of that, a lot of them are, you know, younger. And so my decision to talk about that specifically came from, I did a talk actually like five months prior to that. That was very personal, and that was the first time I was able to tap into that personal aspect and it felt so easy.
The whole talk was very smooth and just felt like it flowed and it worked really well and I was like, why was that so easy? You know, cause I always freak out about these big talks that I feel like there's, I think everyone, when they have a talk, they have a platform. So they're like, what can I fit into this platform to, you know, check off all the boxes, not just my highlight reel, but like lessons I learned, you know, like everyone has these things they think that a talk should have from all the talks they've gone to.
And that was definitely where my brain was at. And the first time I did something so personal was when I felt so good about it afterwards, even though, you know, I think everyone still feels like, Oh, what did I just say? That was a motivation for the Antwerp talk in which I was able to talk mostly about motherhood.
I mean, obviously talked about work and influences a motherhood on work, but I think that was a really important time for me cause I was reflecting on motherhood. That was the first time I, I've been away from Ren. For the entire time since she was born too. Yeah, so that was,
Justin: [00:18:41] we were talking about it. It's like, yeah, big deal.
Shawna X: [00:18:43] Yeah, it was, I was like nervous leave and then like after, after I left for like 12 hours, I was like, this is great. And so I took a lot of that energy. Yeah. I took a lot of that energy and I'm like, I just need to talk about what is, what is going on with me. Yeah. Just be transparent, honest with my feelings, everything that's good and bad.
Justin: [00:19:06] Yeah. Well, because I think it's really easy, like you were talking about like trying to plan one of those talks, and I remember the first one I did, which is like probably eight or nine years ago, I was like, first of all, you're like, who the hell do I think I am?
Shawna X: [00:19:16] Yeah.
Justin: [00:19:17] And then like, imposter syndrome.
It's like one of the, yeah. One of the few times I've actually felt it where you're like, Oh, What do I have to say? why does anybody care?
Who do I think I am?
Shawna X: [00:19:28] Yeah. It's like, why does anyone give a shit?
Justin: [00:19:30] And then you're trying to sound smart because you're like, Oh, I want to like, and you're like, you never really think about why you do what you do.
And it's just like instinctual, but then you start to unpack it. But then when you can just come from a point where you're just like, well, this is just how it is and this is what I do. And there's just a, like. You came acros, very, very sincere, very willing to open up. And I think it's a, it's a topic that not many people talk about.
So I think a lot of, creatives that I see a lot of women, when they have kids, they sometimes feel the need to not show that they had a kid. and I like the, what third or fourth interview we did an Overshare with Jessica Hische and Jennifer Daniel, and they were like, Jessica was like, I cannot post pictures of my... I had to stop posting pictures of my daughter. Because I wasn't getting where people are like, Oh, we see you have a kid now. And she's like, it just sucks. Because like Eric, who is like her studio mate had a kid also and was posting pictures, but he was still getting work inquiries. And so she felt like the need to stop doing it.
And so I think also a lot of times don't even acknowledge it in the work. And I think what's been amazing about your work. It was known as being like very trippy and sexy and curvy and beautiful. And, and then as you, once you became pregnant, it reflected in your work and you started doing work about pregnancy.
And then once you had Ren, and you started doing work about being a mother and boob and breastfeeding inspired rugs and all of that stuff. And it's so, it's so refreshing. Cause I don't think I'll, I don't think many people would have the courage to do that.
Shawna X: [00:20:57] Thank you. It's nice to hear.
Justin: [00:20:59] Yeah. And well, and it's.
Yeah. I guess was there any hesitation in the work or were you just like, screw this or it's what I know right now and this is.. Shit's changing.
Shawna X: [00:21:09] I think work has always been. I think personal work, especially it, it's always been so close to me. It's reflecting what I was going through. So all the trippy sexy, curvy to pregnancy, like all of that was a reflection of my experience at the time, so I can't get away from that.
Justin: [00:21:27] Yeah.
Shawna X: [00:21:27] So it wasn't like a hesitation and background, but I definitely, in the year I was, you know, the first year I was pregnant, I definitely noticed there was less work going around, especially with all the stuff I did the year prior to that. I was surprised to see how little work I was getting last year.
Justin: [00:21:46] Cause you were super busy the year before.
Shawna X: [00:21:48] Yeah. And so I don't want to say it's because I was, I'm a mother, like I can't tell. How do you, how do you know? You know, like is it, is it someone that sees this stuff and they say, Oh, she doesn't have time. Is that actually what's happening? Or is it the industry or is it you know, X, Y, Z. You have no idea...
Justin: [00:22:07] Is this pregnant belly going to resonate with gen Z?
Shawna X: [00:22:10] Exactly. Exactly. That's a big part of it too. And I mean, I've definitely gotten inquiries from these Gen Z brands. And I'm like, well, this stuff I'm making now is about motherhood. And then they never call me back.
You know, like, I definitely have had a few of those calls before too, and I'm okay with that. Like, I don't resonate with them and it doesn't matter. I'm growing.
Justin: [00:22:30] So you, so you won't take on briefs that don't feel personal to you.
Shawna X: [00:22:34] Depends. Right. I think now I am not so attached to my work as much as I used to be.
I'm now I'm able to step off, step away and say like, okay, am I, do I resonate with this? And if not, does it pay? Well, you know what I mean? Like those are very real questions I am working with. But I definitely would like to resonate with the work. And sometimes it's not even the work. It's the people I'm working with.
And more and more, I realized how important that is. More than the money, more than the project, it's the people you're making work with.
Justin: [00:23:08] Yeah. 100%. Well, if they understand you and support you and
Shawna X: [00:23:14] Exactly. Exactly. Like the clients that I have, like the last year when I've, you know, been kind of selective with clients, the ones that I have worked with, you know, and it's not even a glamorous project. It doesn't even pay that well. But like working with them, they were so accommodating. Like there's so much just appreciation, and that alone was pretty worth it for me. Yeah. So I have that privilege of choosing that right now.
Justin: [00:23:43] Well yeah and getting to that point in your career where you have the options and the flexibility,
Shawna X: [00:23:46] And I want that collaboration.
I don't want, you know, "Oh, throw a bunch of money at me" or you know, something super glamorous cause no project is really that glamorous, seriously
Justin: [00:23:57] I think that's important to remind people. No project is really that glamorous.
Shawna X: [00:24:00] Really seriously. Really doesn't matter.
Justin: [00:24:03] Especially the ones that you think are going to be glamorous usually.
Shawna X: [00:24:06] Yeah, exactly.
Justin: [00:24:08] "I killed myself for that."
Shawna X: [00:24:09] Cool. And I have like, you know, I felt good about it for a week afterwards and where am I now? Always the case. So
Justin: [00:24:18] you might as well pick people you like hanging out with and, and, yeah, yeah,
Shawna X: [00:24:22] yeah. Exactly.
Justin: [00:24:23] It seems like those projects you've been doing lately are coming to you because of the subject matter you've been
Shawna X: [00:24:30] There has been, yeah. Yeah. So it's been interesting to see that experience and the types of people that are working, like coming to me to work with to have been way more invested and they all know about myself as a mother. So there's that. You go into it in a very transparent space. But not to say every project is like that.
Yeah. Like I just had a project killed like a few weeks ago. I was so happy about, like very, very ecstatic that it was done. And I, it was like, you know what? I had a feeling it was going to be a bad partnership and I'm glad that's over,
Justin: [00:25:06] it was a blessing. I think that's an interesting, that on the aspect of people coming to you for the work that's reflective of all of you, because I think a lot of times as creatives we go and make stuff that's, you know, whatever we put out into the world. But not necessarily reflective of who we are completely. And obviously like the work we put out is never 100% all of us, but I think the themes that you're willing to explore now and the conversations you're willing to have and the talks you're willing to give definitely shows a more complete picture, I would guess. And people are like more accepting of that, which has got to feel pretty good.
Shawna X: [00:25:41] Yeah. I think that transparency and honesty that I've been really feeling the last year, and talking with that and also having that very open dialogue with whoever I work with has been really helpful in that approach.
Justin: [00:25:59] Well, I got really inspired by a few of your slides at Us By Night. I, you just have some good quotes and even like your captions on your Instagram, but, you said "after you push your baby out, shit is just different.
Shawna X: [00:26:10] Oh yeah. In every way. In the good ways. When something, okay. For example, if I'm working out and it's really like a really difficult workout in my head, I'm like, I give birth bro, and I'm fine, always.
I remember that every, like I remember after I gave birth, I had to pee. I was basically bed ridden for an entire week and imagine like going to the bathroom probably hurts like hell. And I remember going to the bathroom and being like, I just gave birth. It's fine. And every time I think that it just happens.
It's this magical like line. I gave birth,
Justin: [00:26:46] I'll never be able to do that.
Shawna X: [00:26:47] You will never experience that. I'm sorry. It's
Justin: [00:26:49] like I would have to go and climb Mount Everest. That bar
Shawna X: [00:26:54] I just climbed Mt. Everest. I'm fine.
Justin: [00:26:57] The closest bar I have is I trained for and ran a half marathon. I can assume it's nowhere close.... Have you ever run a half marathon?
Shawna X: [00:27:06] No I have not.
Justin: [00:27:08] You can't compare. Yeah. We'll find someone who's had a child and run a half marathron and see which one is
Shawna X: [00:27:13] Now I think if I do train for it. I will think "I had a kid, I pushed a baby out," like maybe I'll do it next year.
Justin: [00:27:25] Now have you wanted to be more ambitious in like the challenges you take on now because you have a high bar.
Shawna X: [00:27:31] I definitely am. It's funny because I'm more ambitious in the sense I'm easier with my body. So I used to do really hardcore like CrossFit, but before I give birth, and now I'm like, I don't need to do this
Justin: [00:27:46] while you were pregnant?
Shawna X: [00:27:47] Yes.
Justin: [00:27:47] How'd that go?
Shawna X: [00:27:48] Cause I was like, I can give birth.
Justin: [00:27:50] Did you do burpees?
Shawna X: [00:27:53] I did. I was like [grunts]... Just kidding. I actually did move a bunch when I was on the epidural, which didn't make any sense I think because CrossFit, but I thought CrossFit was going to make my birth delivery a lot easier and it didn't, at all. And I realized it was because I was focusing on the wrong muscle groups. I was just doing all these like squats and you know, all the box jumps and stuff, but I should have been doing more slower pace things like pilates and yoga breathing. And I realized I was training my body just cause I thought it was the ambitious thing to do. But actually the more ambitious thing to do is just whatever your body feels good to do.
Justin: [00:28:35] To become more flexible and more fluid.
Shawna X: [00:28:37] Right? Yeah. And it's not always like the most hardcore thing that you see. It's actually like a lot more peaceful than that, at least for me. So. But yeah, I'm more ambitious in that sense, but I do notice that my body can take a lot more than it used to, and it's seriously because of that line.
Justin: [00:28:54] I think it's a mindset thing too. Like I was at a event last week and there was a guy, this guy Jim Quick, who helps people with their memory, and he had everyone just face forward two feet on the ground and put your right arm out pointing, and then had us turn as far as we could to the right. And remember that, and then close our eyes. And he had us think about twisting twice as far than three times as far and four times as far. And he's like, now open your eyes point and do the same exercise. Did you go further than you did the previous time? And I think almost everyone in the room did.
And it's like, why is that? It's like, Oh, because we could see ourselves achieving more. And so like the mindset is a box. And so I think with like childbirth, you're like, okay, my body's capable of way more and I'm capable of way more.
It's pretty incredible.
Shawna X: [00:29:41] Before I think when I was doing, you know, an exercise that was really difficult, I would always say, repeat in my head, "I'm not my body. I'm not my mind," and that can only go so far, I think. And now I'm having that experience as childbirth with that mindset, it's like, I'm not my body. I'm not my mind, and I gave birth at the same time, so I'm trying to like see where that could take me, but not be ambitious in a sense that society thinks is ambitious.
Justin: [00:30:06] It's a different definition.
Shawna X: [00:30:08] Exactly. It's like, what's my own ambition?
Justin: [00:30:11] I guess that's a good question. What's your ambition?
Shawna X: [00:30:13] I'm still figuring that out, but it's definitely different than what I thought it was before.
Justin: [00:30:19] Like what? What were your benchmarks or your goals. How did you frame them previously versus now?
Shawna X: [00:30:24] Previously, it was a lot of work-oriented goals. It was more like, "I want to get this client, I want to make this tip, I want to make this money, I want to have this kind of freedom." And obviously those are all great things to have. And I think now these goals and you know, after you've made that money, after you've had that client, after you've had that freedom, it's kind of like, these goals aren't necessarily goals.
They're just. Like steps along the way. What is the bigger picture of the goal? And I think for me, I do love freedom. I think freedom is really important to me. And whether that's freedom with my mind, freedom from pressures of society, freedom from labels of motherhood. And that comes with obviously making money, that comes with, you know, having the right type of relationships and tools. But I think the goal now is a little bit more open-ended and it's more of like an umbrella goal than these specific things that I had in my past. And also understanding, is that a goal set by me or is it a goal set by everyone else?
You know, like Instagram makes me think I have these goals, but is that what I really want for myself? So that's a question that I'll always ask myself.
Justin: [00:31:43] And that's a hard thing to step back from and unpack, right? Because we have decades of culture and societal pressures, learnings, expectations. And then so then what's really my idea and what's someone else's?
Have you figured out any way to differentiate that?
Shawna X: [00:32:01] Definitely. I think I am doing this thing where, you know, I'm trying to meditate more and thinking about intuitively how does that feel. And that's something that I haven't connected in a long time, because in the past it was like, "Oh, I got all these checkboxes on the paper. That's great. Let's go for it." But sometimes when I feel, oh, I have the boxes checked, but I feel a certain pull towards another direction, what is that feeling? So I start to explore that, and I think, what is that? Why do I want this? Or why do I not want this? It's a lot of just evaluation and thinking about what makes sense.
And especially now my energy is, you know, obviously split between family and myself and my relationship and social life and work. You know what I mean? It's like the energy is very limited. So understanding where I want to put that energy and how excited I am about certain things, and evaluating why it is so important to me.
Justin: [00:32:57] Giving yourself the space and the time to actually analyze that and think about that. I was talking to someone recently at one of our Talking Not Talking events, which is like our support group for creators ee do every month and someone said about they're having a hard time articulating the goal for a project and someone says, well, one, can the goal just be a feeling and it doesn't even need to be an end?.
It could be each day of the project. I've started to go and put that into like even a project we were working on last week at work, and it was like, "well, how do we want to make people feel? People should be like, 'fuck yeah, sign me up'.' And it's such a broader sense: how to make someone feel. It's such a nice way to articulate it as opposed to like, "can we get them to sign up or can we get them to buy something? Can we get them to like my picture on Instagram."
Shawna X: [00:33:45] it's just the world is driven so much by data. It's so much driven by all these, like ROI, marketing, results. You know what I mean? And I, while I understand why that's the case, I also feel like the importance of intuition and you know, trusting that and making sure it's coming from a place of security. Also cause I also think your intuition could be kind of tweaked if you're in a fearful place. That's part of it too. and you know, going back to your question, like how do I determine what's good or not? I also think about like, where's this coming from? Is it coming from fear? Or is it coming from trust.
Justin: [00:34:24] Because if it's fear based, it's pretty easy. If you can identify that it's fear-based, then it's probably not something you really want to be doing.
Shawna X: [00:34:31] And then maybe you just have to do it because of X, Y, Z, and like go into it with that understanding. And I think that makes a project or whatever, you end up doing, a relationship, a lot easier.
Just knowing your own expectations for yourself.
Justin: [00:34:46] Speaking of labels of motherhood and cultural expectations, in your talk, you had a slide that said, I can have it all.
Shawna X: [00:34:53] Yes, I believe that. Yeah. I think that you can have it all, but you know, not at the same time.
Justin: [00:34:59] The traditional definition is like "oh yeah, women try to have it all." No one ever talks about guys trying to have it all.
Shawna X: [00:35:06] Right. And it's kind of annoying that we have to just constantly remind ourselves of that. But I also feel optimistic about society in a way that we are being more open to different perspectives. A lot of different marginalized feelings and ideals and concepts are out in public and people are actually listening rather than being like, fuck you, that's not right.
And so in that, I think also comes, you know, freedom and openness with partnerships in a parenthood for an example. And also with that, it's not just, you know, fatherhood and motherhood. Fatherhood is becoming a thing that people are like, Oh, actually you should pay attention to that more like maternity leave is also, is it just as important as paternity leave? Yeah. You know, like daycare and childcare, that affects both moms and dads, not just a woman's problem. It's everyone's problems that have kids. On top of that, I think also with freedom of work like. Working Not Working having a network of freelancers. I think a lot of people are freelancing now, and with that, it's such a different time for parents. And when I say I can have it all, it's like I can see there's a lot of conveniences now to have a kid and also do a lot of different things. And I'm optimistic about it. In that way.
Justin: [00:36:26] And so what is your definition of having it all compared to what you know as the traditional definition. How have you redefined it?
Shawna X: [00:36:35] I think having it all for me is the ability to see past now. In the past, having it all means that you have all these traditional thing like money, you know, a child, I don't know, all these things at the same time. But for me, I realize it's, I should not stop. I should stop thinking about everything in terms of the moment. I should start thinking about everything in terms of holistic life. You know, like right now I might not have enough time to go out to a rave cause I love raves and I haven't done that for a long time. I really miss going out. But I know that when Ren is a little older and I could send her to my parents and my parents could happily take her for a couple of days and I could do that. You know, just thinking about in terms of,
Justin: [00:37:23] it's not all this week right now.
Shawna X: [00:37:26] Exactly.
Justin: [00:37:26] That's anything like, I guess any point in your life and career, you're never, the scales are always going to be tipped in one direction.
And I think that's a thing that I've learned is like just being kind to myself in those moments. Like, I'm not doing this enough. I'm not exercising enough. Yeah. But you're dealing with your feelings like it's 24 hours a day or whatever else is going on in your life. If that's okay and that's enough.
And so it's all like, it's this, you know, it's a balance and most of the time it's going to be imbalanced. But like knowing that, okay, I'm going to dial this back and then do a little more of that, then I'm going to go to the rave.
Shawna X: [00:37:57] Cause realistically nobody can have everything at the best. That doesn't make any sense. It's impossible. It's absolutely impossible. . And I don't think if you have money that helps with a lot of these issues, that's still possible. There's just so much that you give up. In lieu of something else.
Justin: [00:38:14] And it's just prioritizing the things that are important to you. Do you feel like, you know, you've been freelance for how many years now?
Shawna X: [00:38:20] Since 2016
Justin: [00:38:23] 2016. Does this feel like what you're doing now in the way that you're balancing work and motherhood would be impossible if you were full time somewhere.
Shawna X: [00:38:30] I would definitely give up a lot. And right now, I'm very thankful I have time to be with my child because I know that this is a very precious, important time of both me and her and my partner's lives.
And I would never, ever regret spending more time with her versus doing more work or making more projects. You know what I mean? I would never regret that. So I think as a freelance person, like this is great. For now. And I can 100% go back to full time one day. I'm not opposed to that. It really just depends on what that is.
But right now I enjoy this freedom and I enjoy, the, the fact that I have space from, you know, a lot of expectations for myself to understand my goals and intuition. And then, so if I were to go step back into the workforce, if I were to, I come back with a different type of confidence than I had before.
Justin: [00:39:30] Well, I know a lot of people are afraid, especially with their freelance, afraid of taking a break. So like I talked to a lot of people who were like, "yeah, I won't go on vacation. I won't do this because I'm afraid if I go on vacation, no one's going to want to hire me again.
Shawna X: [00:39:42] I have a friend that's dealing with that. He just bought a house, so he's like, Oh, I don't, I don't have a job for this week. I'm freaking out. I'm like, you need to chill the fuck out. And I think that's the bad side. The flip side of freelance, like, yes, you have a lot of freedom. At first it's like very fun and easy, and then later you're like, Oh shit. Like I had the security of a job. All my life. And now I have, you know, a gap in, you know, moneymaking periods and I have to figure out what to do and what if I don't get a job again?
Like, what have I become, you know, not recognizable. Like what if people forget about me and it's just like a spiral. And I definitely went through that.
Justin: [00:40:24] how'd you get through that?
Shawna X: [00:40:26] Oh my gosh. Well, just seeing how, cause my partner and I both, he also works for himself and he's never had a full time job. He's just gone into photography since he graduated college. And so seeing his up and downs. Cause I think, I actually waited to go into this world to try to see what other people did and how their experiences were. And seeing the up and down and seeing how like one year could be really shitty, but the next year you could be like the best you can ever have.
And then the next year it might change again. you just kinda have to trust that. You have to have trust in a way and a blind faith in a way. And I don't know if that's good advice or bad advice, but I do feel like "blind faith."
Justin: [00:41:10] I think it's great advice. It's also, it's confidence in yourself, and that's, I think that really helps, especially when you're freelancing and it's hard because you would go weeks without getting something. it's going from the mindset of abundance. Then instead of a mindset of scarcity and it makes such a difference, and if you have time off, invest in yourself and go do some shit, go to the MoMA and just do personal work or you know, it's nice to have those options.
Shawna X: [00:41:37] There's other options, like we also live in a really expensive city, so if you really can't find work, you can move somewhere. You could move to New Mexico.
Justin: [00:41:45] Or like the Catskills, a lot of friends who were doing that and they love it.
Shawna X: [00:41:50] And there's options. And I think that's what I'm saying about you can have it all cause I think there's options now. At least there's more options readily available to us now we can tackle.
We can't, we're not stuck. Nobody is stuck in anything.
Justin: [00:42:02] Especially now. It's like the internet is magic. Everything's possible. And you know, you can do new work and get it out there. I love talking to like, in another episode, that's coming out after this, Tristan Eaton, and he says, he'll just go and do new work under an alias so people don't have any preconceived notions or expectations about what he should be doing or like it because he did it.
And just puts it out and just sees the reaction. And I think that's like a really, it's nice to have that freedom
Shawna X: [00:42:29] What does he say about it? Like did he really enjoy that process? And still does it?
Justin: [00:42:35] Yeah. Because like he has it, you know, like you, like you have a following and people know what you're known for it.
So if you want to go and branch out in a completely different direction you could also say, screw it and do it, or he just does it as like a little little test, little experiment and then, cool. Let's see what happens. which I think is really nice. Yeah. We're gonna pause for a quick break, then we'll be right back with more with Shawna X.
Okay. So I guess this is an ad break. We've never actually done one of these before, and we don't actually have a sponsor right now, but, I said we'll be right back. So I have to put something in here. so if we had an ad and we had a sponsor for this episode, this is where that sponsor would go. I could say Working Not Working is the sponsor.
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Or, you know, it can be for your company or for you personally. You need a date. I need a new job. You want to sell your car, whatever. Let's talk, let's figure it out. Let's make a deal. and so we can be creative, and we'll figure something out. So if you want to talk to our audience and get your message out there. Hit us up at @oversharetalks on Instagram, slide into our DMs an d we'll figure something out. All right, now back to the episode
... and we're back.
I've always wondered what people do in those breaks cause we've never actually done a break like that before, but we just like had some drinks and we talked about the masculine energy of doing CrossFit when you're pregnant.
Shawna X: [00:44:04] which didn't help,
Justin: [00:44:07] not recommended by Shawna X. Nope. all right, so this next section is called, this might get uncomfortable.
No, I don't know. Do we have a budget more for like sound effects or jingle or something? All right. So, okay. So we're gonna we're, we'll throw something in there for this might get uncomfortable. Okay. so the first question, what's one thing you've never shared in an interview before?
Shawna X: [00:44:35] This is a really big question.
Justin: [00:44:37] There's a lot as you've been interviewed. A lot.
Shawna X: [00:44:39] Yeah. Like what terms? What ways?
Justin: [00:44:42] You're the boss.
Shawna X: [00:44:43] I still bite my nails and I'm 33 years old
Justin: [00:44:46] I for sure do that.
Shawna X: [00:44:48] That's pretty bad.
Justin: [00:44:49] Yeah. I don't know where that came from. W what's it say about us that we bite our nails?
Shawna X: [00:44:53] That we're anxious.
Justin: [00:44:54] Anxious. I never thought of being someone with anxiety, but I'm also a little OCD, so I think having long nails kind of freaked me out.
Shawna X: [00:45:01] Yeah.
Justin: [00:45:01] This is the part where everyone starts gagging. Thinking about people biting their nails. We should just do that for a good, like two minutes, on the mic, with really good audio? This is the ASMR section right now
Shawna X: [00:45:12] I used to get them done a lot, so I don't bite them, and now I don't even go anymore. Pretty gnarly.
Justin: [00:45:19] They look, they look alright.
Shawna X: [00:45:20] Oh, that's cause I did them like perfectly. I feel like I, I am with my nails now. Yeah. But I don't, I'm not OCD overall.
Justin: [00:45:31] And we were talking about nail biting. I'm sorry everybody. I'm so sorry this, you know, this might get uncomfortable. Can you describe what childbirth is like?
Shawna X: [00:45:39] Yes. So it was the most terrible experience for, I would say, 10 hours in the beginning, contractions were the worst things I've ever felt like I was blacking out. From the pain. And the thing about the thing with a woman's body that I've read and watched on YouTube, actually I never, I'd never, I didn't take a birthing class. I watched everything on YouTube.
Justin: [00:46:04] Do you recommend that?
Shawna X: [00:46:06] I actually kind of enjoyed it. I learned a lot of information. It's not for everybody.
Justin: [00:46:10] You put a lot of gifs, at your talk. Animals and children.
Shawna X: [00:46:14] Yeah, and the crazy thing is everyone's bodies are different. I mean, every woman's bodies are different. Like you will not know how painful childbirth is until you give birth. Like there is nothing that you could ever prepare yourself for.
It maybe like hypnobreathing, which I didn't do, but, it was very painful for 10 hours contractions, and that was even before delivering. And then I had the epidural, which I didn't feel anything for 10 hours, but I was still like basically knocked out, puffy. And then I pushed for four hours and I watched that whole thing happen.
Well, I didn't watch the entire thing, but I had a mirror placed so I can look at it just to see what it looks like. The vagina's insane.
Justin: [00:46:56] Was Collin taking photos?
Shawna X: [00:46:58] Oh no,
Justin: [00:46:58] he didn't?
Shawna X: [00:46:59] He was like holding my hand, you know? But I think he was equally just like. What happened?
Justin: [00:47:06] That'd be amazing if he had like a tripod set up with like the self-clicker, that just, you guys are doing family portraits with Ren's crown coming out.
Shawna X: [00:47:16] Well, it's just crazy. You see your body morph in a way that you're just not. You're like, how is this happening? How is capable? It's like a cavernous cave. You know, like how did that become this and it was blood everywhere.
Actually pushing. I pushed for four hours, which was really loud. I think I was almost about to get a Csection. She came out on, they'll get very, she was getting like vacuumed out. They had like a suction cup trying to pull her out.
Justin: [00:47:44] I had a cone head for like the longest time. It's a good look.
Shawna X: [00:47:49] Yeah, it was really, it was a very intense and right afterwards I was like, I'm never giving birth again, and now I totally forgot about the pain. That's how the human experience goes. You just forget it all. You forget all the pain, all the highlights, keep on going, which is kind of nice.
Justin: [00:48:06] I was, during that description, I was getting a little white, just thinking, trying to empathize.
That sounds. Fucking horrorible
Shawna X: [00:48:14] now. It's great.
Justin: [00:48:16] Yeah. Do you think you'd have another kid now?
Shawna X: [00:48:18] Yeah.
Justin: [00:48:18] Yeah. See? Totally forgot about the pain
Shawna X: [00:48:20] Exactly.
Justin: [00:48:21] now these are less child birthy questions. Do you feel like you have something to prove?
Shawna X: [00:48:27] yes, I think so. I think for Ren now, it's like the audience of who I have something to prove to.
It's definitely for my child. More than anyone else. Like I want to make sure that she, you know, is well-groomed and becomes like a person that has confidence and compassion and also ambition and like, I need to be that for her to grow into that. So how do I not sit on my phone and look at Reddit all day?
You know, like things I have to challenge myself to do, to make sure she doesn't watch me and do the same thing herself.
Do you consider
Justin: [00:49:03] yourself a confident, ambitious person?
Shawna X: [00:49:05] I think so. Yeah. I feel like I've been, I learned a lot of confidence through my years,
Justin: [00:49:11] so just being, you will do that.
Shawna X: [00:49:13] Yeah. Yeah. But I definitely am more aware of my actions now than I've ever been before.
Justin: [00:49:19] Oh, I can imagine.
And were their conscious decisions, when you found out you were pregnant or right when she was born, that you're like, all right, we're going to do this a certain way to make sure she either, you know, has that confidence or is a creative spirit or whatever it is.
Shawna X: [00:49:33] Well, I think one thing is trying to be more organized in my time because I think before, I'm a pretty free spirited individual and same with my partner.
We're just kind of like, Oh, let's do this. Let's go get lunch and then let's do some work for an hour and then let's go travel. You know what I mean? It's like very all over the place and now having more organization is really important cause I also feel like that's important for a child to have. Some sort of restrictions and boundaries.
And I don't want to be one of those, like parents who just like, do whatever you want. I don't think that's helpful either. So those are just things I think about. I don't think about it as consistently. I definitely still watch Love is Blind and go on terrible Reddit forums about Love is Actually.
I definitely am more conscientious of what she sees me doing or, or am gonna try to do more. So she's probably already picking up on stuff 100%, and she's very aggressive and I'm like, I wonder where she got that from. She's extremely loving and aggressive.
Justin: [00:50:40] hey, it's kind of amazing just seeing how much kids pick up on and it's just like, Oh, cool. Yeah. You see everything I do. Great.
Shawna X: [00:50:49] Yeah.
Justin: [00:50:49] I can imagine like, I don't have kids yet, but at some point it had to be a little more conscious of that. do you feel like ambition, ever gets in the way of your happiness?
Shawna X: [00:50:59] Yeah, I think so. Well, actually it depends on what type of ambition. I think. If it's all work-related, then yeah, I think anything that you put all your effort into, something else is going to lose out always. So if you put a lot of effort into work, family, or social lifemay kind of lag behind, you know, it's all about balance for me.
So I do think that if you have too much ambition for one thing. Happiness could be sacrificed and that's okay. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I think you can always just adjust. Like if you want to go for something really badly right now and something else is going to suffer, just know that and come back to it.
Justin: [00:51:43] Yeah. And, and also not fighting that either. Cause I think that's where it's like. Oh, I need to have it all. I need to do it all equally and simultaneously. And it's like, Hey friends, family, I'm not, you're not going to hear from me for a month.
Shawna X: [00:51:56] They understand. Yeah. And don't be, don't beat yourself up for it.
Cause I used to do that. I used to, you know, work a lot. And then. I will be like, Oh, I haven't like connected to anybody recently, and I feel bad about it. And it's like, Oh, it's because I haven't put any energy into that. Part of my life is just, you know, constant balance, all of your lives, so it's all okay.
Justin: [00:52:15] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way to look at it. what's been the most challenging point in your career?
Shawna X: [00:52:21] I think dealing with clients that don't respect work in a way. I guess it's, I think that's a back and forth situation I'm dealing with. You know, like when it comes to contracts and things like that that don't pan out the way you want.
Those are big, small challenges. I would say like the most challenging thing, my career, I'm like. It's difficult to pinpoint. I think it's constantly a challenge because you're constantly trying to find, I think as for me too, as a creative, like I do mostly illustration and art and design, so it's like finding that space to even be creative.
That first is challenging. So if I'm in that space, I'm like, okay, I have to go for it full hard, like all the way into it. But then, you know, if I'm managing my own logistics on top of that, like admin work is a huge part of a lot of freelancers day to day. That's extremely challenging. So I think it's important to find help.
There's a lot of agents out there that are trying to do freelance space too. It's not just like, I need to sign you. It's, you know, they're open to you going to them. You know, I work with much creative Matt a lot. He's awesome. I know he's amazing and he does that for a lot of creatives out there. I just think finding the right resources to, you know, help you out with the things you need and finding help is always important
Justin: [00:53:47] because that admin work in the business of being a creative can definitely overwhelm you.
And it's a lot. And I found that was the stuff I would procrastinate on. Because I didn't want to do it, and then when I did it, it took me forever and I was terrible at it. And it's like, just get some help. Yeah. It makes such a difference. what are you struggling with right now?
Shawna X: [00:54:05] Right now. I actually am in a pretty balanced place right now.
I think I only struggle when I'm not balanced, but prior to this, I had a shitty job that really was explosive and fell through, which, you know, as I kind of mentioned, it was a really good experience. I think that's one of those things where every year I can expect to have one to three bad client jobs that I work with and it's not, and I realized with that it's never to do with my work.
It's always communication. It's either I'm not communicating or they're not communicating.
Justin: [00:54:38] Is there a way, now, that you are able to spot those sooner?
Shawna X: [00:54:43] I try. So now like I've been doing this for a while. I try to preemptively assume and understand what's going to happen in the future.
But you can never predict anything. Of course you can always try to, but sometimes it just doesn't work out, especially when you get work that is filtered from client to agent to rep, to you, and you have like, yeah. And it's that kind of stuff never really works out. And I think. The work that I think makes the most sense, the most efficient is direct with the client and working with them.
And I think that's why I'm at a place where relationships with whoever you're working with is so much more important than anything else. And I'm a hundred I'm going to dial that in like even more this year is just making sure this is a good relationship. We have transparency, let's communicate, and I will do my best to do that.
So if a project fails, I understand that. I put my best face, and also my honesty. And transparency to make sure everything was working. And if it didn't work out, it was communication. No blame game, you know?
Justin: [00:55:51] is there anything that people get wrong about you or your work?
Shawna X: [00:55:55] I think.
I'm not sure. I actually don't know. I think at a certain point in my career when I was drawing a lot of like sexual, like vibrant things, people were like, "Oh, you're really into only drawing butts, or like, you know, like people definitely have responded in a way because it's what I was presenting and obviously I understand that people just, the way they look at work or they look at creatives they want to categorize you in some ways. And I think that's just how we are as humans. so right now I'm not so sure because I feel like I'm pretty open to my experiences in every front. So I don't know if anyone's gonna get anything wrong about me necessarily, unless I'm presenting myself wrongfully.
Justin: [00:56:50] It seems like you're presenting yourself pretty authentically right now,
Shawna X: [00:56:53] so I think, not now, but who knows? That could change
Justin: [00:56:57] for sure. everybody will be like, Oh, she's just the pregnant lady.
Shawna X: [00:57:03] Exactly.
Maybe I should just do that for the rest of my career. Just draw breastfeeding all day every day.
Justin: [00:57:11] Well, it's. It'll continue to resonate.
Shawna X: [00:57:14] Ren is like 25, like still breastfeeding.
Justin: [00:57:19] Oh man.
Shawna X: [00:57:20] Like Ren, come here.
Justin: [00:57:23] I've got to do some new work.
Shawna X: [00:57:24] Come into my room. No, it's, creeepy.
Justin: [00:57:27] what do people underestimate about you?
Shawna X: [00:57:30] I think. Oh, that was my phone. I feel like in the past it was my ability to see past 2d spaces. And it was definitely because that was the only type of work I was given.
And I realized you have to like to get the work you want to be getting, at least paid for, you have to push yourself into those directions of where you want to go to. So I think in the past I learned that lesson. So anytime I feel like I'm being underestimated, I have to just do it myself.
Justin: [00:58:05] Yeah. That's a good lesson. When I scroll back to the beginning of your Instagram, and it's cool to see the shift in your style, but then you also had the lifts with cheese, pepperoni, the lipstick thing, making that in 3 D for the Museum of Pizza.
Shawna X: [00:58:23] and I just did it. You just have to do it sometimes, and obviously we're always constantly, I think as women too, we're constantly second guessing ourselves, and I think that's something that I'm also understanding, especially culturally too.
I think as an Asian American, my cultural background, Chinese people are always like, be modest. Don't be the best, you know? Like, just make peace and, you know, make sure everyone feels good to be around you. That was like what I was taught growing up. And I think there's something to be, I think that's a great lesson to have, but I think personally it's just how do you push yourself and how do you push yourself outside of that ceiling that you created for yourself?
And I'm still working through that.
Justin: [00:59:04] Yeah. Seems like you're doing a pretty good job at that.
Shawna X: [00:59:07] I try. Yeah. We'll see.
Justin: [00:59:10] What's your biggest fear
Shawna X: [00:59:11] That we're all going to die from coronavirus. No, I'm just kidding. I don't think anyway, I, I'm not that scared of coronavirus. I feel like there's a lot of paranoia. I think it's interesting.
I kind of enjoyed it in a way, is that bad? I enjoy the paranoia.
Justin: [00:59:30] I think it's like, interesting how people react to stuff.
Shawna X: [00:59:34] Yeah.
Justin: [00:59:35] Like my friends in Portland were posting a supermarket, and I guess because like the first phase was in Washington state, so it was pretty close. It was like all the toilet papers, come on, everything's gone.
yeah. It'll get interesting
right now. We'll see what happens.
Shawna X: [00:59:49] I mean, my, my biggest fear though is
Justin: [00:59:51] I didn't take the subway here today.
Shawna X: [00:59:53] I actually did. I was like, I'm not gonna get it. It's fine.
Justin: [00:59:58] I can give everyone a ride back to Brooklyn after this.
I drove it. are there any ways that you self-sabotage?
Shawna X: [01:00:06] yeah, all the time. I think when it comes to my creative projects, I always self-sabotage every single project I ever have. And I think it's just my process
Justin: [01:00:16] and in which ways, like,
Shawna X: [01:00:17] like I will make something I'm really excited about. I'm like very stoked on an idea or a concept and I go into it and I always hate it in the middle of the process.
And then I end up pushing myself more and I get better. And then I hate it again after it's completed. And that is just my process. And honestly, my partner hates it. He's always like, stop second guessing yourself. Like, I am so sick of you getting so upset over something, it's great cause I will just constantly be like, is this okay?
But I think I realized this is how I push myself is I have to have that doubt. To know that's not good enough.
Justin: [01:00:55] If you just came out swinging, super cocky...
Shawna X: [01:00:57] I have to tell myself that's part of the process. Yeah.
Justin: [01:01:03] Well, it's helpful, especially if you know it. I've found when I've tried to write a new talk, to give it like a conference, I get like crushing, like, yeah, self-doubt and stuff.
And I'm just like, I get a panic attack like two days before, and I'm like, yeah. Now I'm just like, just stop doing that. It's all gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine.
Yeah. And I think that's the thing. It's like, all right, we'll keep pushing ourselves. But yeah,
Shawna X: [01:01:25] back and forth all the time. I remember when I used to have, you know, shows or whatever, I would cry right before just being so upset about like how it's gonna turn out and I will get wasted at the shows.
Cause I was just didn't want to even deal with. That being a thing, and ever since I got pregnant, I can't get wasted anymore. And I've actually dealt with all these anxieties and realized, Oh, I should just appreciate this is my process. Yeah, that's it.
Justin: [01:01:52] Yeah. I think the thing is also nobody will remember that one little detail that you weren't even or whatever.
Shawna X: [01:01:58] Like this podcast. Nobody's gonna remember if I said some.
Justin: [01:02:01] No, nobody's even listening. It's fine.
That's the joy of podcasts. Nobody's ever listening. And you just say whatever the hell you want. Let's just talk shit on people. That's fine.
Shawna X: [01:02:13] Fuck you, Adam.
Justin: [01:02:16] Every Adam's going to wonder if it was them.
do you have any regrets?
Shawna X: [01:02:21] Actually I don't think so. And I think it's because I know that I will deal with it. Like, I think confrontation is something I actually, I hate it, but I enjoy it because I know that when you have a feeling that you internalize, it goes into a terrible place.
So might as well take that and either speak to the person that you failed or you've wronged. Or, you know, deal with it and work through it yourself and get it out there. Yeah. Don't, don't internalize it.
Justin: [01:02:52] And if you could just have a conversation about it, it's over.
And a lot of times it's a bigger thing to you than it actually was to the person. So you're like, Oh, that wasn't a big deal.
who makes you jealous?
Shawna X: [01:03:03] Who makes me jealous? That's a hard question. I feel like a lot of people, I mean I, I'm inspired by a lot of creatives. I'm not necessarily jealous of them.
I envy them in a way that I'm like, wow, you guys are amazing, Hassan. There you go. He doesn't make me jealous, but I'm like. Wow. You have such a charisma. You're so smart, Hassan. Yet you're so smart. You're so like good at what you do and you're so down to earth like, what the fuck? How are you all these things at once?
Justin: [01:03:45] what do you want to do that you haven't done yet?
Shawna X: [01:03:48] A lot of things. I want to live in another country again, just for a little bit.
Justin: [01:03:53] Where'd you live?
Shawna X: [01:03:54] I lived in China after I graduated college, but I want to live either back there with my child and partner so they can both learn Chinese or we can go to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe like Amsterdam where it's super family friendly just to try it out to experience that.
That's something I would like to do. We'll see.
Justin: [01:04:14] even if it's for three months or six,
Shawna X: [01:04:16] six months, I think is good. I think three months is too short to really understand a place, so I want to do that for like six months to a year. We'll see what happens. there's a lot of stuff I want to do. What else?
Like I want to learn how to scuba dive. My partner is doing free diving right now. He's like holding his breath for longer than three minutes. I'm like, what the fuck? That's crazy. I just want to be more comfortable in the water. I think the water freaks me out.
Justin: [01:04:42] Yeah. I never really learned. I went to summer camp and I took all the swimming classes.
I'd never really learned to tread water, and I almost drowned before, but then I finally learned how to tread water. I was in Sydney Harbor on a boat, and everyone jumped off. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna stay close to the ladder. And then I went out and I was like, wait, I've been out here for like 20 minutes.
Right. And I haven't talked to the bottom yet. And it was just like, Oh, I guess I'm treading water. But it was like the time where I wasn't drowning and someone was trying to teach me while I was drowning. How to tread water..
Shawna X: [01:05:16] It's very freaky. It's like 80% of the earth, 70%
Justin: [01:05:19] and it's like freakier than space.
And you start thinking about space.
Shawna X: [01:05:23] I want to go to space. Yeah.
Justin: [01:05:26] So if you could be on one of the first flights to Mars but could never come back...
Shawna X: [01:05:31] Oh, I don't think I could do that.
Justin: [01:05:32] So, but you'd like to do tourist space
Shawna X: [01:05:34] I'd like to go to the moon for, what is it like $200,000 on Virgin? Now they can let you go up for like 200 something that really, yeah, you could pay for that.
Yeah, we'll fact check it. I would love to visit the moon. It'd be really interesting. just to see earth. Actually, I don't think they can go to the moon. It's like just to that atmosphere. You can see the earth. I mean, there's no way they could go on the moon right now, but I would like to go to the moon.
I could.
I could see that being appealing. Yeah.
Right.
Justin: [01:05:59] what's been your proudest moment?
Shawna X: [01:06:02] Proudest moment, man. I feel like I don't think about this at all, so I can't tell you. Maybe having a kid, is that what everyone should say?
Or giving a talk about having a kid
give me a talk about having a kid. I feel like I have a lot of problem moments and I, I just think they kind of all, I think that's why I'm a confident person is because I make myself proud all the time.
Justin: [01:06:26] That's so good. Cause I think that was a thing. Let's go back to talking about me running a half marathon, which you know, is a new development since last season. but after doing that and something I didn't think I could do, I was just like, Oh, it's really nice to give yourself opportunities to be proud of yourself, and doing something that either scares you or puts you out of your comfort zone.
and for that, like for the last a hundred meters of that, And the feeling I got to see a finish line after like months of training. I was like, Oh, all of this was worth it. And I think it's nice if there's anything that's kind of scaring you to go and just put it out there and tackle it. It just, it's such a great feeling.
And so if you're someone who. It's constantly giving yourself opportunities to be proud of yourself. Yeah. Like you're going to have a lot of self love and you're going to have a lot of confidence. And that's a, that's a really
Shawna X: [01:07:12] proud of that. Proud of the self-love for sure. And I think it's because I kept a journal for the past five years, so I've been jotting down like negative and positive feelings.
And anytime I go back to that, I, I realize moments that I'm proud of and moments that I'm not proud of. And just like learning from that has taught me a lot of self love. But I do realize I haven't written in a while. So like recently, I definitely am going to go back and record down things I am proud of, cause I haven't done that in a while.
That's good.
Justin: [01:07:44] Yeah. what would Shawna from five years ago think of Shanna
Shawna X: [01:07:47] today? Like, wow, you have a fucking kid. Like what I've used ago. I definitely didn't even want to. To have a kid at all. I was like, I'm going to just do this forever and have fun and yeah, go to raves like whatever travel party, like very, you know, hedonistic slash, self, you know, freed freedom.
Which I, I totally still enjoy it. I mean, ran when I was an accident, a really great accident, but definitely not planned. And that was a good situation where I'm like, I'm going to go for it. Cause it feels good. Yeah. Yeah. The five years ago I would never see me in this situation, this space, and it's great.
I like that
Justin: [01:08:32] you haven't lost that spirit either. Finding ways to incorporate that into. into who you are now,
Shawna X: [01:08:39] right? Yeah. Yeah. It's been, I think the five years. I liked that five year thing. You always have to think about that.
Justin: [01:08:45] Yeah. Well, and I think that's a,
Shawna X: [01:08:47] what was it, five years ago today you would think about yourself today
Justin: [01:08:52] I'm about to turn 40.
I was 35. I, well, I always have this joke that I've said many times and over shares that I spent 36 years not feeling feelings. and I hadn't been in touch with how I. The stuff I've gone through my life and I haven't gone to Alanon and I hadn't gone to therapy or had maybe just started going. So like, I'd never would've been able to start this podcast or start doing talking and talking or have open conversations about what I'm struggling with, with casual acquaintances.
And it's just, it has unlocked my life in a like a crazy, crazy
Shawna X: [01:09:24] way. That's awesome. And so thank you. Thank you.
Justin: [01:09:29] Well, because it's stuff that I ran from like running from feelings and emotions and struggles and. You know, like I, I didn't want conflict. Like my M O is to be like the peacekeeper entertainer.
Gemini. Oh, shit. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Hell yeah. so that's, but for me, I just didn't even know that what was possible until I actually like tapped into the shit that I was
Shawna X: [01:09:51] avoiding. I would say five years ago I was also running away from. Feeling myself and yeah, opening up that like understanding of how you feel and your experiences has really changed.
Like, I remember things now. Whereas when I think about my early twenties and mid twenties, I don't remember a lot. And I think it's cause I was running away. Yeah. It's
Justin: [01:10:14] looking for distractions. Yeah. and I think like when you start to prioritize yourself, start to prioritize friendships and relationships, things become so much richer.
Like, and that's the thing that's like, I started talking about. No, I can easily talk about now growing up in alcoholic households or going through divorce or all of these things that I've learned with like someone I just met and I'm not afraid of it and I'm not. And I think the biggest thing with all of this, when we talk about cultural expectations or expectations on motherhood is getting past the shame that.
People put on you a and B, being afraid and thinking you're not supposed to talk like this or you're not supposed to act like that. And it's just like, fuck it. Like just not giving a shit and make such a,
Shawna X: [01:10:57] it's hard.
Justin: [01:10:58] Well, and also it's a time, it takes time to be confident enough in yourself to
Shawna X: [01:11:02] know, I
Justin: [01:11:03] don't really care if someone judges me on this and I can say it on a podcast and nobody's listening.
Shawna X: [01:11:09] But at the same time, you're a kind, compassionate person, which, you know, that's really important too, to have that and to not give a shit, you know, like there's people who don't give a shit and they're like terrible people on
Justin: [01:11:21] the counter there. all right. two more questions. what is success to you.
Shawna X: [01:11:27] Success is constantly changing for me. but for now, I think maintaining a balance is successful. I think having fulfillment through work, family, social and self, those are four big areas right now that I'm working with. And to maintain satisfaction all four areas. Is very successful. To me, that is success.
Justin: [01:11:51] If you can pull that off, that's
Shawna X: [01:11:52] pretty incredible. Yeah, and I want to carry that through, but we'll see. I know that, you know, it's not easy,
Justin: [01:12:00] but in every day, every day is not going to be the same.
Shawna X: [01:12:02] Exactly. Exactly.
Justin: [01:12:04] and finally, how are you feeling right now?
Shawna X: [01:12:06] I feel good. I just had some coffee. James some water hydrated.
Justin: [01:12:12] You made it through podcast interview and didn't cry.
Shawna X: [01:12:14] No, I did not cry. I haven't cried in a while, which I really miss crying
Justin: [01:12:18] should we just talk about something? I'll make you cry.
You
Shawna X: [01:12:21] have to watch like Dumbo or some like movie that makes me sad. That like makes no sense. Like, like the part where on Dumbos moms swings Dumbo outside the cage.
Oh my God. Ugh.
Justin: [01:12:33] Anyway, on that note,
going to have a good cry on Dumbo
Shawna X: [01:12:41] thank you so much for doing this.
Yay. We did it.
Yay.
Justin: [01:12:47] I would high five you, but coronavirus.
Shawna X: [01:12:48] Oh yeah, that's true.
Justin: [01:12:51] Thank you so much for doing this, Shawna. Really appreciate your candor and humor and reminding us of how sad and depressing Dumbo is.
I'm going to go find that clip now and get really bummed out, but, thank you for being a part of this first episode of season three. Really, really enjoyed the conversation. If you enjoyed the conversation, which I'm assuming you did, you've listened to it this long, please subscribe.
Please subscribe, rate and review us to help other people discover the podcast. And also we've got all sorts of clips and sound bytes on our Instagram feed at overshare talks. And if you could share that with the world, with your people, and really help us get the word out. And we really, we really want other creatives to benefit from this.
So, any, any way you could share this and get it in front of other folks, we'd really appreciate it. Oh, so huge thanks to our audio engineer, Jesse Peterson and the team at second child in downtown New York city who hosted us in their beautiful podcast facility all of last season and will be hosting us this season as well.
They're amazing. Also, thank you to our producer, we have our producer now. I was basically doing this. producing this by myself with help with Gabby, last couple of seasons. And, you know, our, our team chipped in, but it's a, it's a, it's a lot to do so, so, so thankful. Have more around the team and helping out, making this happen this season.
it's allowing us to level up and do episodes every week instead of every two weeks. So, are your champion. Also thanks to Eugene for capturing the video of the interview for our YouTube, which you can find it on there, to see what Shawna and I look like as we're talking with headphones on. Also, thanks to Eugene and Gabi Damato for the branding, the new Overshare branding, that you can find on our Instagram as well.
And our theme song is Let it Grow by Caleb. Grow. Now, if you're a creative or hire creatives, and I'm talking about like just your regular creative. You're an incredibly talented, amazing, creative person, or you like to hire those types of creative people, please join us at Working Not Working. We would love to have you workingnotworking.com.
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And that is all we've got for this episode. And we will be back next week. If you're listening to this the day we release it, otherwise you can find more episodes, but we will be out every Monday morning, for the, at least the next year. Foreseeable future. We've got a lot of episodes lined up and a lot of great conversations that we're excited about, so, we look forward to seeing you soon.
Thanks.